Have you considered a more turnkey release?

  • I'll try and keep this as succinct as possible.

    Sorry if anything comes off as blunt, I admire the work done here so very much, but I tend to ramble on, so I'll be direct :)

    Just know I respect everything you do to make this project a success, and this isn't a criticism, more a brainstorm.

    Been a user for nearly a decade now :)


    Have you ever considered a much more turn-key release?

    Perhaps an alternate script in the installer?


    With recent events such as Sony 'stealing' media people had purchased, only months after Google Drive lost huge amounts of peoples data, the 'Home NAS' topic has never been more alive.


    Spending an unhealthy number of hours a day on forums, discord and reddit helping new users of every NAS system under the sun, I've come to realise there is a very specific set of features people want, which OMV is very capable of, but doesn't offer without a bit of 'tribal knowledge' on how to setup.


    Outside of what comes already available; I'd assert that the following are 'expected':

    • ZFS - Every influencer is touting it as required.
    • SnapRAID - For anyone who can't afford UnRaid.
    • MergerFS - Usually pairs with the Above.
    • Portainer (or any 'pretty' docker manager) - Docker is the 'new hotness', thanks to influencers (and it's good...).
    • KVM - As above, people who don't understand Docker, want VM's.
    • 'Embedded' safe (flash memory) - With TrueNAS recently dumping that support, It's another 'hot button issue'.

    I don't want to step on any toes, so I'd like to first aknowledge I don't know how hard these would be to impliment out of the box, but my ideas would be as follows:

    • Make the Proxmox kernel default, thereby including ZFS, without having to fork your own solution.
    • Make SnapRaid and MergerFS default tools.
    • Install Docker and Portainer (or similar) by default
    • Install KVM by default.
    • Make the 'Flash Memory Plugin' default installed and active, with a toggle to switch it off, for more resilient logging.


    Support questions on DIY NAS Discords, Reddits, and Forums are pretty predictable at this point.

    People want to either "add one drive at a time" (SnapRAID) or want "the most safe" data solution (ZFS), have "limited hardware" or "No budget" (FlashMemory), and some arbitrary 'fun' aspect like Minecraft or Plex (Docker).


    While I'd love to see more, even something as simple as a prompt asking "Do you want to install OMVExtras?" on first boot would be incredible for the new user.

    Perhaps followed by a "Do you want to install the Standard Suite?" to fulfil the above list perhaps?


    There was once a debate about ZFS around CDDL and GPL, but Canonicals legal team (who have to consider legal ramifications across 70+ countries ) are confident it's a non issue.

    ZFS Licensing and Linux | Ubuntu
    We at Canonical have conducted a legal review, including discussion with the industry’s leading software freedom legal counsel, of the licenses that apply to…
    ubuntu.com

    Besides, when you're leveraging someone elses kernel (Proxmox, in this hypothetical), you're not responsible for that anyway.

    So while I'm not a lawyer, it should be a non-starter.


    ---


    Realistically, this is an ease of use change, but a 'perception' change first and foremost.

    I'm a bit of a natural in the marketing and UI fields, and I simply can't stress enough how much being able to say "OMV can do that" without a 'But...' would drive this project.


    It's why Mint+Cinammon has taken the desktop world by storm.

    Expected tools (automount USB, wallpapers, Closed source driver-finder tools, etc) were included, because there is one thing in the FOSS world that will always remain true, and I think is broadly overlooked:


    - Advanced users can always remove and configure.

    - Beginners can only use what's provided.


    It's why different classes of driving licence exist, it's why qualifications exist, and it's something us 'nerds' tend to forget.


    At the end of the day this is your project, not mine.

    I may be way out of scope of what you envision for this project, but it's bothered me for literally years, and I just wanted to voice my thoughts, if only to drive discussion.


    Thanks all, appreciate you reading :)

  • chente

    Approved the thread.
    • Official Post

    I don't want to step on any toes, so I'd like to first aknowledge I don't know how hard these would be to impliment out of the box, but my ideas would be as follows:

    • Make the Proxmox kernel default, thereby including ZFS, without having to fork your own solution.
    • Make SnapRaid and MergerFS default tools.
    • Install Docker and Portainer (or similar) by default
    • Install KVM by default.
    • Make the 'Flash Memory Plugin' default installed and active, with a toggle to switch it off, for more resilient logging.

    Why bloat the core installation? OMV can be enhanced via plugins, so let the people choose what they want to install additionally. There is documentation that explains how to do this. So there is no excuse for the user not knowing how to do it.

    There was once a debate about ZFS around CDDL and GPL, but Canonicals legal team (who have to consider legal ramifications across 70+ countries ) are confident it's a non issue.

    ZFS Licensing and Linux | Ubuntu We at Canonical have conducted a legal review, including discussion with the industry’s leading software freedom legal counsel, of the licenses that apply to… ubuntu.com

    Besides, when you're leveraging someone elses kernel (Proxmox, in this hypothetical), you're not responsible for that anyway.

    So while I'm not a lawyer, it should be a non-starter.

    Ubuntu has enough money to take this to court if necessary. I don't. Therefore ZFS will never be integrated into OMV core. BTRFS is the official alternative that has no license problems.


    While I'd love to see more, even something as simple as a prompt asking "Do you want to install OMVExtras?" on first boot would be incredible for the new user.

    Perhaps followed by a "Do you want to install the Standard Suite?" to fulfil the above list perhaps?

    The OMV project and OMV-Extras are different projects. Plugins can be integrated into the official plugins catalog if wanted; the authors simply have to contribute them to the project.
    Mixing OMV-Extras and the core project is not possible because of licensing issues. OMV-Extras is a haven for plugin authors that don't want to subscribe to the project CLA. It's also a great addition to the openmediavault ecosystem.

  • Most of the things you ask people don't use by default,and probably don't need.

    1. Proxmox kernel + zfs is let's say unusable for non-x64 cpu's so it doesn;t make sense to use it. I use it almost everywhere,but those are pro machines and not hobby pcs. OMV is generally marketed/oriented toward home or smb ,mainly because there isn't any pro support, and this is something you should expect while using enterprise packages.

    2. SnapRaid or Mergefs are a bit of a intermediate solutions in regard to dmraid or zfs or btrfs , so i don't see value in shipping this by default.

    3, Docker- you already have some ootb apps with podman, but yeah this makes a bit of a sense.

    4. KVM - Nas by default shouldn't even have virtualization, but sometimes it makes sense. But RAM requirements for this are not that low(NAS can run on 1gb of RAM).

    5. Flash plugin - again, if you have ssd,this doens't make sense, so only rpi/arm/risc-v(VisionFive2) likes and pretty much nothing else.


    So if you look at the default OMV installation,it is pretty much sufficient for basic NAS workings.

    • Official Post

    I wasn't suggesting integrating the userspace module into OMV.

    I was suggesting using a kernel that already had the module included.

    From a legal point of view, this does not change anything and therefore remains problematic.


    Not at all, that would require the author of OMV inserting OpenZFS code into something they've written.


    I'm suggesting using an already released, and GPL licenced kernel, such as Ubuntu or Proxmox, not written by the OMV developer.

    If that include ZFS, that's the kernel authors choice, the only thing anyone else is doing is using a software source that was presented as GPLv2.

    I don't know of ANY jurisdiction where a client is guilty if a seller misrepresents a product (even though I don't believe that to be the case; ther was a CDDL vs GPL thing for a while, but thats LONG resolved).

    Unfortunately, I don't have millions in my account to protect myself from lawsuits if it does come to that. As the project founder and main developer, I am the first to take the rap. That's why ZFS will not be included in OMV. There is BTRFS which does not cause any problems and is already a core feature of OMV.


    If you want ZFS out-of-the-box you can use TrueNAS.

    • Official Post

    Make the 'Flash Memory Plugin' default installed and active, with a toggle to switch it off, for more resilient logging.

    Why a toggle? Just uninstall it if you want it off. There are no settings to configure.

    Flash plugin - again, if you have ssd,this doens't make sense, so only rpi/arm/risc-v(VisionFive2) likes and pretty much nothing else.

    This is not quite true. Many people install OMV on small usb sticks on all architectures. I highly recommend the flashmemory plugin for those cases. Even when using ssd and nvme, they are limited write devices. So, why not use the flashmemory plugin? Many cheap or old SSDs that people use benefit from the plugin.

    I don't want to step on any toes, so I'd like to first aknowledge I don't know how hard these would be to impliment out of the box, but my ideas would be as follows:

    Since all of these are plugins, why not just install them if you want them?


    Portainer (or any 'pretty' docker manager) - Docker is the 'new hotness'

    The compose plugin exists to provide a native docker plugin in the OMV web interface without needing portainer.

    omv 7.4.10-1 sandworm | 64 bit | 6.8 proxmox kernel

    plugins :: omvextrasorg 7.0 | kvm 7.0.14 | compose 7.2.14 | k8s 7.3.1-1 | cputemp 7.0.2 | mergerfs 7.0.5 | scripts 7.0.9


    omv-extras.org plugins source code and issue tracker - github - changelogs


    Please try ctrl-shift-R and read this before posting a question.

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  • This is not quite true. Many people install OMV on small usb sticks on all architectures. I highly recommend the flashmemory plugin for those cases. Even when using ssd and nvme, they are limited write devices. So, why not use the flashmemory plugin? Many cheap or old SSDs that people use benefit from the plugin.

    Yeah i know, i run a few of them off usb(sandisk extreme) for more than 5 years,but i'm just saying :)

  • I'm surprised there's no mention of UEFI customizations, specifically boot image.


    Also ZFS is over-hyped today. With 24TB drives approaching, are you really going to rebuild a 6+2 that is 144TB? That'd take months and almost certainly kill more drives. As technology advances, ZFS becomes less relevant, not more.

    Edited once, last by olduser ().

  • I'm surprised there's no mention of UEFI customizations, specifically boot image.


    Also ZFS is over-hyped today. With 24TB drives approaching, are you really going to rebuild a 6+2 that is 144TB? That'd take months and almost certainly kill more drives. As technology advances, ZFS becomes less relevant, not more.

    I;ve built RAID5 with zfs and 22tb drives, it works for now :)

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